1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

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OLS84
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by OLS84 »

The first one in cylinder 1 failed at 9k and same one has failed again at 18k. Not sure if a reconditioned injector that was fitted initially but from what I can see it was done at VW out with its warranty period.
It’s a quick check to diagnose them. I was getting approx 199k ohms across injectors 2,3 and 4. Injector 1 measured approx 8k ohms. Confirmed it with a scan. Just hoping whatever causes them to fail isn’t going to continue every 10k miles :mad:
Last edited by Giddy on Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: combined two posts in one
BenT
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by BenT »

Thanks for posting back! That sounds like terrible misfortune. Perhaps the "S" injectors are no better than the "B" ones, although it would be interesting to know what the difference is between these as this might give a clue to what's going on (assuming that Siemens know what's causing the trouble!). I do wonder though - it sounds like your van's done a very low mileage and I wonder if it's done a lot of short trips? If so, it might have spent a lot of time trying to regenerate thus frying an injector in the process. Hopefully the rest of your ownership will be uneventful and enjoyable!
ransomz0
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by ransomz0 »

BenT wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:30 pm I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's had this failure - did it happen during regeneration, or at another time...
@BenT how do you establish if the engine is doing a regeneration .

I had 4 B suffix injectors fail in a van with c.27000k miles on it. These all failed over the the first 2k miles which I did in the van (recent purchase). I can't tell whether the van had any issues prior to my ownership. Its 2016 model year (sept 2015 registered) so I was a bit surprised it didn't have the new S injectors. I was suspicious someone might have swapped new for old prior to my purchase.

I've only done 1000k since all were replaced, I carry a spare now. If it happens again - goodbye caddy.
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BenT
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by BenT »

Sorry to hear about that, reliability aside it's the expense too. If these were luxury cars it might be excusable, but on vans predominantly used for works it's incongruous. I think some of the early face lift vans did have the old injectors, there's a chap called Will Evans who does youtube videos on these vans and he noticed this. If you still have them you could check the date stamp (four digit code, starting with O or P for 2015/2016).

When mine regenerates, the exhaust sounds boomy, the engine runs at a fast idle at standstill (1000 RPM rather than the usual 800), the fans run when I come to a standstill, plus with an acrid whiff of unburnt fuel normally. The engine tone is a little different too. But the best bit - the turbo lag disappears :D

This normally lasts for about 4 miles driving sedately - even at town speeds. As soon as the engine drops down to normal idle speed at standstill you know it's finished (unless it's very cold outside, when it'll run at a fast idle anyway).

I can't see any other way that four adjacent piezo wafers in the stack could have melted simultaneously. If it was just shorting out due to wear and tear then surely only the one would have failed? But for four of them to have gone, presumably at the same time, I can't help but think that they've been fried electronically! Especially since they were at the top of the stack where electrical loading's presumably the highest.
ransomz0
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by ransomz0 »

Hi,

Thanks for the info. Yes I am worried it is the ECU which is frying the injectors........

Since I have had the van I have never noticed it regenerating based on your description.

I have got rid of the old injectors but have a picture of one, is the code C001 ?

P.S. The injectors didn't got at exactly the same time. One went after I purchased the van #1, another one went a number of weeks after #3 and i decided to replace 4 as part of the same job. #2 went a few weeks after that. So 3 failed and I replaced 1 as a preventative measure. Sorry my previous post was a bit midleading as I said 4 had gone.
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BenT
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by BenT »

No problem! Actually, I'm biased... I was (am) really hoping it's DPF regeneration related, because then there's something at least we can do to stop the failure from happening. But if it happens randomly then there's also the factor of not knowing when it might happen (entering a dual carriageway from a slip road springs to mind...).

If you look right at the top of the lettering, it's where it says OF29 (or OE29, it's difficult to see). That means:

O =YEAR = 14/15
E = MONTH = MAY
29 = self explanatory

I don't know if Siemens started counting with "A" codes in 2000 or 2001, hence I'm not 100 % certain of the year. Mine's a 2012 Caddy with LA14 stamped on the injectors, which I took to mean 14th January 2012, which would make yours from 2015.

Hope your luck improves. I intended to get rid of mine ASAP because it worries me, but I still have it 2 years later :)
BenT
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by BenT »

Of course, there is another question to ask. Has anyone had an injector fail after DPF removal? Assuming that a remap's been carried out to stop it from permanently running in regen mode, that would rule it out! I'm not sure I want to know the answer though...
ransomz0
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by ransomz0 »

Yes I have the vehicle production date as 23 July 2015. So the stamp adds up.

I'd like to know if DPF delete has a bearing on injector issues .... Could be money well spent.
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robynchristian11
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by robynchristian11 »

Wow, super interesting. Good work. I've two failed on me in the past few weeks 😭
ransomz0
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by ransomz0 »

What age is the vehicle and B or S injectors ?
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BenT
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by BenT »

robynchristian11 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:59 pm Wow, super interesting. Good work. I've two failed on me in the past few weeks 😭
Sorry to hear that, not the best time of year for it to happen, either. Did you manage to get it fixed? Quick question, if you don't mind - was your van doing mainly shorter runs when the first failure occurred? Just trying to get to the bottom of it all...
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by Engineer Bob »

This is very interesting. I previously posted about the problems that I have experienced with injectors. The injectors that are fitted to the VW 1.6 TDI engine of my Caddy Maxi Life have all been P/N 03L 130 277 SX. So far in just over 40,500 miles I have had 5 replacement injectors, the first 4 provided under warranty/'good will' the fifth replaced on 9th November at the rip-off cost of £1101!!! Is it a coincidence that all of the injectors have failed after the 23R7 EA189 NOx modification was performed on my vehicle?
I have been in correspondence with a Stephen Gibson, Customer Relations Manager, Executive Office, Volkeswagen Commercial Vehicles (Tele 0800 783 4909, e-mail customercare@vwcv.co.uk). My e-mails have detailed the early life failures of the injectors (miles to failure rate of between 11,091 and 33,804 miles), the injector design not being fit for purpose, the occurrences happening after the VW modification and being placed in a life threatening situation when the failure occurs in the outside lane of an 'all lanes running' motorway.
After numerous e-mails going backwards and forwards Mr Gibson finally stated '....as there is no warranty in place there is no obligation for Volkeswagen to provide any support towards your repair. Your previous repairs have been covered by goodwill and I must stress that goodwill is not always guaranteed and each case is treated on a case by case basis. Your case is with the Executive Office and this is the highest escalation point for customers who wish to raise complaints. On this basis your case cannot be escalated any further and the decision we have provided will be the final one'.
It is my intention to take this matter of early life failure/ not fit for purpose/ potential threat to life further by contacting the Motor Ombudsman, DVLA, trade magazines etc. Volkeswagen cannot be allowed to get away with this!

Any supporting information that you can provide would be very helpful in my quest!
ransomz0
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by ransomz0 »

@Engineer Bob

I'd happily put my name to this and document my experiences which have amongst other things resulted in my daughter being stranded on a hard shoulder for 3 hours. 3 failures in a short succession.
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robynchristian11
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by robynchristian11 »

Yes as I live on isle of man. Longest runs being 12miles a slow speeds. Never a good time for it to go but 2 at once is a nightmate and worried the other two will go soon or was I just unlucky?!
BenT wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:02 pm Sorry to hear that, not the best time of year for it to happen, either. Did you manage to get it fixed? Quick question, if you don't mind - was your van doing mainly shorter runs when the first failure occurred? Just trying to get to the bottom of it all...
BenT
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Re: 1.6 TDI VDO Injector failure root cause analysis

Post by BenT »

Engineer Bob wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:54 pm
Any supporting information that you can provide would be very helpful in my quest!
Feel free to use any of what I've posted if you wish, it's a pity it doesn't really prove anything conclusively though so I don't know how much help it might be. It's interesting that there seem to have been three generations of these ruddy things (B, S and SX). It'd be really interesting to see what the design changes are between these. Better heat dissipation, perhaps? I suppose these things are getting a little long in the tooth now for VW to care now, they'd probably rather people just bought new vehicles...
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